Windows 7 Update and Windows 10 issue

[Zacam]

Not sure where else exactly to put this, but I encountered a problem recently when re-visiting VtM:B.

This was a working install with Hotfix 8, which ran great. But then work got busy and I haven't been back to it for awhile. Last time I played was prior to PAX Prime convention.

A few days ago, some friends on Steam/FB started talking about the game, so I got them all a copy and pointed them to the TPG. Most of us are on W7, but two are Win 10.

It didn't work for any of them. Game would launch just fine (after "Run as Administrator", Compatibility mode to "XP Service Pack 3" and "Disable Desktop Composition", but the second anybody hit "New Game" it would crash.

Granted, it could have been anything they did or didn't do correctly. Fortunately, 2 of them are local to me, so I went over to figure it out. Followed all the exact same steps that I did to make mine run, and failed.

Thinking I'd gone Malkavian, I fired mine up ... only to have it fail as well.

Code Select Expand


vampire caused an Access Violation (0xc0000005)
in module engine.dll at 0023:200f5a77.

Read from location 00000000 caused an access violation.


Archived the entire folder, cleaned it out, did a clean re-install. For giggles, broke out and patched my retail disc version as well as the Steam version (copied out from Steam). Same problem. (I have two systems, one is W7x64 the other is W10x64)

For Windows 7 at least, there is a bit of hope, it's related to a September MS Update, KB3086255 (you can google that for the MS15-097 document). Following the instructions for re-enabling the secdrv service makes it work and it will stay working until you restart your computer. But Windows 10 doesn't have any such thing to change.

Despite the crash log citing the problem with engine.dll, however, the actual problem is in vampire.dll and here is how I know:

One of the individuals has a friend that uses that ... other thing. And claimed his game ran just fine. So I asked him for all his .dll files from his game. Replacing the \Vampire\dlls\vampire.dll (and only that one) causes for the steps in the MS15-097 article to no longer be needed for Windows 7, and allows it to run on Windows 10.

The release of that Update from MS directly correlates (but I don't want to imply causation) to when it went from working to not working on my machine. No hardware changes took place between when it ran to when it didn't and so far, only VtM:B is affected (that I can tell, my games library is not what I'd call small so I haven't dug through all of them) and it affects pure Retail installs as well.

The problem is, I don't want to trust that file from any other source than here, because not even the devil knows what may have been changed in it.

**Edit: Seems the same problem has been experienced here http://www.tessmage.com/forum/index.php?topic=60272 (or at least, a problem that looks a LOT like this one). However, I can validate that on my 2 computers and on the two local friends computers at least, that the install copies are legitimate versions.

[Tessera]

Well, here is my response:


(1) I do not support Windows 10. Nor does the TPG. Nor does ActiVision, for that matter. The True Patch was not compiled with Windows 10 in mind. Not only VTMB, but lots of games run poorly or not at all on Windows 10. The problem is with Microsoft... not with the game, and not with the True Patch. The best way to fix problems with Windows 10 is to GET RID OF WINDOWS 10... and go back to using Win 7 or Win XP. If you are constantly having problems with certain older games, then the most likely culprit is some sort of conflict or incompatibility with your operating system.

For the record, VTMB is a DirectX 8 game and as such, it works best under Windows XP. Yes, it will run on later versions of Windows (thanks to the TPG), but not as reliably as it does under WinXP. My suggestion to all of you "hard-core" VTMB players is to set up WinXP on your computer as a second operating system and then always play VTMB from there. You can switch back to whatever other version of Windows you prefer after you have finished playing.


(2) The True Patch runs just fine on all known versions of Windows 7 and Windows XP. If you installed the patch correctly, which includes running the VTMB ResPatcher utility included within the TPG package, then the game should work perfectly for you. If you are having problems, then it is almost certainly because (1) you did not install and configure the True Patch correctly, or (2) your copy of either the game itself and/or the True Patch has been corrupted somehow.


(3) In some cases, it may be helpful to locate a copy of the old DirectX 9 SDK and then install (or re-install) the entire DirectX 9 package. This can often fix various problems encountered with older games. Note that on some newer versions of Windows, the DirectX 9 package may refuse to install itself... in which case, you are back to my first bit of advice: play your games using a different (and older) version of Windows.


Some things to keep in mind:

Tens of thousands of people are using the True Patch Gold Edition with Windows 7 and Windows XP, and none of them are experiencing any problems of any kind whatsoever. Meanwhile, three or four people are complaining that they can not get it to work properly. So... what is the most likely explanation for this..? Is it because the True Patch has errors..? Or is it because three or four people out of THOUSANDS are setting it up incorrectly..?

I would like to help you... but the fact is, about once a year I get an inquiry such as yours and in every single case (so far), the problems were caused by user error, a bad copy of the game itself, or an incompatible operating system.

Furthermore, I know from our discourse in another thread that you are using some sort of Russian "translation" of the True Patch... and as I told you within that thread, I can not and will not support unauthorized re-distributions of my work. I have no control over the alterations made by other parties and so, I simply can not help you with it.  



I WILL ONLY SUPPORT:

The full, retail, American English version of VTM: Bloodlines, patched with the True Patch Gold Edition downloaded FROM THIS WEB SITE... and nowhere else.

I WILL NOT SUPPORT:

Foreign language "translations" of VTM: Bloodlines, unauthorized re-distributions of my patch, pirated copies of the game, Windows 8, Windows 10, etc.

[Zacam]

Well, here is my response:


(1) I do not support Windows 10.

Fair enough, not asking you to, just noting that a potential fix for this issue just so happens to also allow it to operate under Windows 10.

For the record, VTMB is a DirectX 8 game and as such, it works best under Windows XP. Yes, it will run on later versions of Windows (thanks to the TPG), but not as reliably as it does under WinXP. My suggestion to all of you "hard-core" VTMB players is to set up WinXP on your computer as a second operating system and then always play VTMB from there. You can switch back to whatever other version of Windows you prefer after you have finished playing.

No argument there, but not always possible.

(2) The True Patch runs just fine on all known versions of Windows 7 and Windows XP. If you installed the patch correctly, which includes running the VTMB ResPatcher utility included within the TPG package, then the game should work perfectly for you. If you are having problems, then it is almost certainly because (1) you did not install and configure the True Patch correctly, or (2) your copy of the True Patch has been corrupted somehow.

No offense, but it went from being a working install to a not working install with the inclusion of a MS Hotfix. Granted, it's nobodies responsibility to fix that but MS, but a solution IS possible.

(3) In some cases, it may be helpful to locate a copy of the old DirectX 9 SDK and then install (or re-install) the entire DirectX 9 package. This can often fix various problems encountered with older games. Note that on some newer versions of Windows, the DirectX 9 package may refuse to install itself... in which case, you are back to my first bit of advice: play your games using a different (and older) version of Windows.

Not a bad idea that, which is (undocumented, my fault) part of what I did when I performed the re-install testing.

Some things to keep in mind:

Tens of thousands of people are using the True Patch Gold Edition with Windows 7 and Windows XP and none of them are experiencing any problems of any kind whatsoever. Meanwhile, three or four people are complaining that they can not get it to work properly. So... what is the most likely explanation for this..? Is it because the True Patch has errors..? Or is it because three or four people out of THOUSANDS are setting it up incorrectly..?

I'm one of those that has been using TPG successfully, and I refuse to play VtM:B without it, which is why I did my level best to understand and research what the problem was before I brought it up here.

I would like to help you... but the fact is, about once a year I get an inquiry such as yours and in every single case (so far), the problems were caused by user error.

And I've done my absolute best to accommodate for user error, including my own. The MS Update I mentioned in the post is the culprit here, not the user(s) and while it CAN be worked around, it's liable to catch many players by surprise or cause newer players to go elsewhere.

Furthermore, I know from our discourse in another thread that you are using some sort of Russian "translation" of the True Patch... and as I told you within that thread, I can not and will not support unauthorized re-distributions of my work. I have no control over the alterations made by other parties and so, I simply can not help you with it.  

Uh, say what? I don't know anything about any Russian translation project, sorry.

I WILL ONLY SUPPORT:

The full, retail, American English version of VTM: Bloodlines, patched with the True Patch Gold Edition downloaded FROM THIS WEB SITE... and nowhere else.

Which is a version affected by this issue and can be traced to something within the vampire.dll and it's interaction post MS Update related to secdrv services.

I WILL NOT SUPPORT:

Foreign language "translations" of VTM: Bloodlines, unauthorized re-distributions of my patch, pirated copies of the game, Windows 8, Windows 10, etc.[/size]

Not running any "translated" or otherwise acquired version, not asking you to support Windows 10, but I am noting that what -can- fix the problem under Windows 7 post MS Update -also- does happen to allow to run under Windows 10 as well.

[Tessera]

Sorry, I must have confused you with a Russian user who was making similar inquiries within another thread. My apologies... it's early here and I just woke up about an hour ago.  

In any case, if MicroSlop has released an update which interferes with VTMB, then it very likely interferes with numerous other games as well. So then, the place to bitch about this issue is over on the MS forums... not here. I have no control over the nasty bullying and incompetence that MS has been VERY guilty of... especially in recent years.

Furthermore, I have been a very vocal opponent of every single version of Windows since Windows 7... and for gamers, my reasons should be obvious. With each new release of Windows, we see thousands of posts by angry gamers all over the internet, complaining that their treasured older games will no longer run properly on newer versions of Windows.

If a particular update from MicroSlop is causing problems with your games, THEN REMOVE THAT UPDATE. You can do so via the Windows Control Panel under "Programs and Features," or whatever they call that applet. Just locate the update in question and uninstall it from your computer. You probably didn't need it anyway, as most of the latest "updates" from MS are nothing but junk designed to push people into installing Windows 10.

Let's face it: VTMB is an 11-year-old game. It has not been updated by its publisher since 2005. Nor is it ever likely to be. Why do you think I wrote the True Patch in the first place..? Somebody had to. Because you see, the corporate creeps in the software industry would much rather push all of us into abandoning our old, classic, and treasured games and instead, buy a bunch of new, mediocre and downright shitty products. To that end, they have been deliberately making changes to their program code, which effectively prevent older software from functioning on newer operating systems. It has nothing to do with the software being obsolete... as one might normally suspect. No, this is actually BY DESIGN... and this is why I referred to such tactics as "nasty bullying" by the software industry. Another term for it is "forced consumerism."  

For all of us, the very best defense against this kind of crap is to set up a separate computer... an isolated (not connected to the internet) machine, running the old Windows XP operating system. I realize that this is a hassle... not to mention expensive... but it is your very best choice, if you can swing it. Build a Windows XP gaming rig, NEVER connect it to the internet (to avoid potential security issues), and then install all of your older (pre-2007) games onto that machine. If this sounds like a lot of trouble to go to, then keep in mind that the software industry is going to a lot of trouble to FORCE you to give up your older, treasured games and buy a bunch of shitty new games instead. So, building a dedicated Windows XP gaming rig is the very best way to tell the software industry to shove it up their collective ass.

[Zacam]

That may work for you and me, but that might not go over so well for a lot of folks less savvy than us, who may have no idea what has just happened to them other than it went from working to not working.

And again, the issue IS solvable and without any user interference at all -and- could be included within the TPG. (which because of this problem, can't be done and result in a working game, which has many people alternatively recommending a piece of bloated stolen shit as a solution per Steam discussions).

Simple fact is, that bloated stolen piece of shit has a version of a dll file that allows it to work. But I cannot and will not trust THAT source, much less recommend or redistribute that for my friends whom I've convinced to use the TPG, when I'm equally certain that a valid TPG solution is possible.

Yes, VtM:B is an 11 year old game. And TPG has, for me, kept it alive and awesome since its inception, I will never use anything else. It would be nice to just remove the MS Update and call it a day ... until that missing update causes another problem elsewhere down the line, or causes the less savvy users to just abandon your work in favor of being swayed by other "solutions". And none of my friends have the wherewithal in either time or money to have dedicated hardware as you suggest (even though that IS the most optimal solution).


So, let me put my money where my mouth (or in this case, fingers) is: a $200 bounty to fix this issue by investigating and correcting -by your standards- the vampire.dll in a version compatible with the TPG and its standards. Because I'm at my wits end and have been dealing with testing and regression testing on figuring out any other means to solve this problem for other people since Wednesday. And I will even be a guinea pig for any needed testing, since I can perfectly replicate the issue every time.

[Tessera]

That may work for you and me, but that might not go over so well for a lot of folks less savvy than us...

Uh-huh...

And what exactly do you think that -I- should be doing about this..?  

I wrote the True Patch. And then I gave it away to everybody for free. And I have continued to support it, at my own expense, for the past eight years (and counting). I've done my bit.  :angel:

I will not, however, make myself responsible for educating the public about their computers. I do post articles from time to time, in an attempt to help people learn more about their games, their operating system, and about PC gaming rigs in general. But I can't run out and grab everyone by the neck and shake them violently, until they stop being ignorant about their own computers. Nor can I fix every single case-by-case problem that some folks might have. The fact is that most of those problems wouldn't have happened in the first place, if the end user had simply taken the time to learn how their own computer operates.

All I can do is give the best general advice that I can... and I have already done so, on many different occasions. Including within this thread. But the rest is up to them. Anyone who owns a PC should make at least SOME effort to learn the basics of how their machine functions, as well as how their software interacts with their operating system of choice.

A computer is not an appliance... despite the idiotic ways that the industry has tried to market them to the public. No -- a computer is a tool. And every tool has its required learning curve.



BOTTOM LINE: I have absolutely no interest in making what I consider to be unnecessary changes to the True Patch Gold Edition at this time. I have already given the solution to the problems that you are referring to.

Beyond that, I have no further interest. But I do appreciate your continued support for the TPG. As for whether or not other VTMB players might decide to install something other than the True Patch, that is entirely up to them. They will unquestionably be settling for an inferior solution... but in any case, I wish them luck.

[Zacam]

I get that. And this isn't relevant towards educating people on their do/don't practices, but more about maintaining the TPG's relevance.

TPG is easy to use. You authored it well specifically to suit a specific purpose. There is, fundamentally, -nothing- wrong with it, I think we can both agree to that end.

That use has been compromised. And yes, that isn't and nor should it be your responsibility to fix, but I think it's within your ability to do so. This isn't going to end up being a "fringe" issue. As that MS Update continues to propagate, any number of current TPG players (who may or may not be on a hiatus from playing right now) will end up getting hit by the fact that it is no longer working, and no amount of attempts on their part on re-installing it -per instructions- is going to fix it.

Any number of new players, unaware of the MS Update, will hopefully be recommended the TPG (as all of my friends were by myself), only to not have it work. And it has nothing to do with their capability, they can at the least manage to extract and copy the contents of the TPG into their VtM:B install and play. And that, frankly, is really all it should require and up until now, is all it really did require.

Okay, so you've done your bit. I get it, years of getting shit makes anybody tired. So let me try another venue: Will you allow me to utilize the TPG version of the vampire.dll to author a proper fix for this issue and the ability to distribute it, with the provision that it has a disclaimer that you are in no way shape or form responsible for it? Because I can't ethically do otherwise, and I refuse to use any content from Wesp's work for any reason.

[Tessera]

I get that. And this isn't relevant towards educating people on their do/don't practices, but more about maintaining the TPG's relevance.

In what manner, Zacam..?

To update the TPG so that it functions better with a HORRIBLE operating system (Windows 10) that I absolutely hate... and flat-out refuse to support..? What you are asking for is, in a way, tantamount to me getting into a coding war with MicroSlop. Because every time I change something, you can bet your ass that a few months down the line, they'll release some other new hassle for us all to deal with. Fuck that.

Incidentally, VTMB isn't the only game that doesn't work properly with Win 10, you know. If you bop about on various gaming forums, you'll find posts about DOZENS of older games that are malfunctioning under Win 10. Everything from Diablo II to Hellgate: London to TES: Oblivion and back again. I'm also hearing that some versions of DOSBox, as well as some versions of VirtualBox, are likewise malfunctioning under Win 10.

WINDOWS 10 SUCKS RAT BALLS... PERIOD. Especially for gamers such as we. And the updates that MS has been issuing for Win 7 as of late are likewise causing certain software... which was running just fine on Win7 until recently... to suddenly malfunction. Gee... I can't imagine why...  

Anyone who knowingly and willingly participates in that disgusting situation deserves whatever they get. But you can count me out. I won't waste one precious minute of my lifespan on ANYTHING having to do with MicroSlop and their latest bloated, dysfunctional craptastic. If it were up to me, then the execs at MS would be jailed on criminal charges.

I understand the points that you are trying to make, and I can appreciate where you're coming from on this. But I simply will not get involved. VTMB should be played on Windows XP... period. I adjusted several of its executable files, as well as one or two of its DX dll's, in order to allow it to run reliably on 64-bit Windows 7, also. But it runs at its BEST on the operating system that it was originally designed for: Windows 2000, or Windows XP. And now that MS seems to be deliberately sabotaging Windows 7 via a series of malevolent "updates," I'm not sure that I can give any better advice than what I have already given: set up a dedicated Win XP gaming rig, and then play VTMB from there. It's the only sure way to avoid any further sabotage from MicroSlop.



Free advice, for those of you who have limited funds at your disposal:

You can install a complete Windows XP operating system on an external hard drive. And then, you can tell your computer's BIOS to boot your computer from that external drive, instead of from your internal drive(s). This will allow you to have the best of both worlds, with only a minor amount of extra hassle. As for the cost... an external drive costs less than $100 USD these days. So for those of you who can not afford a completely separate WinXP computer for your games, you might consider this as an option. Just be sure to disconnect your computer from the internet, prior to booting up the Windows XP operating system. As of last year, MS no longer supports Windows XP and therefore, Windows XP is now vulnerable to online threats (such as hackers, malware and viruses). So simply disconnect your Win XP machine from the internet, and then you'll be perfectly safe. When you're all finished playing your Win XP games, just disconnect your external Win XP drive from your computer and then reboot into your normal OS of choice. Like I said, it's a bit more hassle... but it works beautifully, and it's cheap.

[Zacam]

I'm not asking for Windows 10 support; I'm saying there is a way to reliably allow it to continue running on Windows 7 as a result of an Update that will likely catch many users unaware and off guard. The fact that a potential fix for THAT issue -might- also happen to allow it to run on Windows 10 is absolutely secondary and a bonus. All I'm asking for is some consideration or flexibility to try and address that issue.

As for in what manner of maintaining the TPG's relevance, it comes down to this:

It has always been dead simple to use the TPG. Extract, copy, play.

That process will now no longer work, through no fault of its own.

So now, while having users gaining an education on the problem would be an absolute blessing, the more likely scenario is that a certain thieving bastard and his cronies get to chortle over their inferior product still managing to "work" in a manner that still allows players to play the game (albeit in a highly corrupted manner) because it will be the -results- that most people will be interested in: Will it run.

I want the TPG to be on the list for the "Yes." column, regardless of where one is coming from or how savvy they are to understanding MS's "practices", because I want it still be the BEST (and in my opinion ONLY) viable solution to continue playing this game in the intended manner.

I have decompilers and other tools, though I haven't gone through the efforts of reverse-programming in nearly 5 years, I'll dust that off and give a go at resolving this. Because I have a certainty that a much better solution is available that doesn't have to rely on using an piece or part of something somebody else made (or more likely for him, stole). But it would be a waste of time to do so if it can't be shared, and it can't be shared without you because it will be based on work you have done in order to maintain the work you have done. Because I believe it deserves to continue surviving and thriving for players to use.

[Tessera]

I have Windows 7 installed on a server machine in my house. The original retail version of VTMB, along with the True Patch, is installed on that computer. I just checked it, and it is running perfectly on my Windows 7 server machine.

The reason it is running perfectly is because I did not allow that computer to download certain malicious "updates" from MicroSlop.

So we're still right back where we started, with me telling everyone to REMOVE any Win7 updates which have caused VTMB (and anything else) to stop working on your Win 7 machines. You do not need those updates... they do not make your computer work better or safer... and as we have seen, they have actually caused your computer to malfunction. REMOVE THOSE UPDATES FROM WINDOWS 7. For Win 7 users, that is the BEST fix for this issue. And it is the only fix that I will support.



Now I want you to consider something that I feel is very important...

MicroSlop does not want to continue to support PC gaming.

Hello... is this on..? Let me say that again -- a little louder...

MicroSlop does not want to continue to support PC gaming.

PC games interfere with MicroSlop's X-Box 360 sales. Also, PC games are far more easily pirated than console games. So, the revolting software industry is responding, by (1) creating newer games for consoles FIRST, and then doing some sloppy console-to-PC port later, and (2) by trying to discourage us all from PC gaming in general... in the hopes that we'll all run out and buy some shitty Kiddie Konsole system instead.

Just as Windows 8 tried (and failed) to push everyone into buying tablet computers, the latest software from MS is likewise trying to push everyone into buying things we DO NOT WANT and DO NOT NEED.

No, I am NOT wearing a tinfoil hat on this. It's the fucking truth... and anyone who has been an avid PC gamer for the past 10 or more years should have seen ample proof that what I have just said is correct. Windows gaming is being sabotaged, by greedy corporate cocksuckers who want to nudge all of you over to using gaming consoles instead. For one thing, they make a MUCH bigger profit from the sales of console systems and console games, which by design are much harder to copy and pirate than PC games are. And they can maintain much more control over HOW we do our gaming, because console games are practically impossible to modify (create mods for).

Wanna take that power away from these revolting piglets..? Then do what I told you to do: build a dedicated Windows XP machine, keep it disconnected from the internet, and play all of your older games on that.

Don't wanna do what I told you to do..? Then suck on it... because this situation is going to continue to get worse -- not better. I promise.

[gerda]

I think they do want to support pc gaming but they are moving towards a "closed shop" setup with win10.
They've been giving away a few beta games recently to entice people in.
I think they want a piece of Steam's pie

[Blankspace]

I think they do want to support pc gaming but they are moving towards a "closed shop" setup with win10.
They've been giving away a few beta games recently to entice people in.
I think they want a piece of Steam's pie

They want everything to go to a DRM based model.

[Tessera]

This is why piracy and DRM hacking have had a serious upward spike in the past couple of years.

MS is losing. Period. They're a big company with lots of money, but they're outnumbered a million-to-one.

[Forum_Pirate]

Fuck that. If it's MS DRM in the form of UWP (which are actually worse than most DRM because they're *incredibly* restrictive) or not playing at all, I won't play. I flat out refuse to pay for a game with modern DRM other than steamworks, and I generally refuse even that. In general, DRM free or no buy. 

[krakr]

Can confirm that KB3086255 is the culprit on Win 7 x64.
recently tried installing cherry on my SSD  C: drive and never got to character creation screen.
Went back and tried playing my ancient install on my F: drive and had same issue.
Uninstalled KB3086255, rebooted, went into windoze update, saw it wanted me to re-DL it, right clicked on it and chose "Hide"
Reinstalled again, no issues, no update warnings to DL the shitware that is there for the sole purpose of sending customers scrambling to get Win 10, the official spyware of M$.

While I appreciate your vehemence about building a stand-alone game box Tess, I do not:
A:) have the cash for that
B:) have the room for that (unless I get a KVM switch)
C:) have the desire to let fucking microshit dictate how my PC and my legally purchased copy of their OS is used.

I ran into a similar issue with both Crusader Kings 2 and Bayonetta, and spent my own valuable time researching a work-around. (worked for both)
Just glad the OP posted this so I didn't need to spend my own time dicking around all night to find an answer.
So kudos to you Zacam for hookin me up.

[Tessera]

You could also run two operating systems on the same computer (aka "Dual-Boot").

Windows 7 and Windows 10 will co-exist just fine on the same machine. Just be sure to install Windows 7 first, and Windows 10 last.

And once you re-enable the SafeDisk/SecureROM driver on Windows 7, VTMB and all other games from that era will run just fine.

Then it is simply a matter of booting into Windows 7 for gaming, and then using Win 10 for everything else.

Speaking personally, I can't imagine why anyone would want Windows 10 in the first place... considering the fact that Windows 7 is still being supported by MS and most hardware manufacturers. It saddens me to see that so many people are still being sucked into the "newer must be better" trap... especially when you realize that each successive version of Windows for the past 15 years has been successively worse than the versions that came before it. Microsoft gets rich, and the rest of you get screwed. And then you bend over, and ask them to screw you again 2 years later. That's my take on it.

[perez007usa]

With a lot of tweaking, you can play with win 10, a lot of tweaking. I really have no problem  with it, as long as you keep up with it.  Keeping an eye on the manatory updates. You can uninstall those updates, they will  be back after  a month or so.  With win7 and  xp all you do is go for it and its done. Win 10 you need to keep an watchful eye on it, to make it work the way YOU want it to do. You need to just keep up with it or  MS will own you.

[Tessera]

Thus far, I have avoided Win 10 altogether. I've never used it... ever.

Everything about Win 10 screams "RIP OFF" to me. I won't go near it.