Gas prices and the economy

[Schu]

Hay Schu,  we have been seeing the gas prices coming down,( my area 3.14 tops). Now that the 4th is over, it jumped to 3.25, no little by little increments, a penny or two a day, like the way  they did this time around, but nnoo, it jump, to 3.25. guess I' ll take my bike out. and use it.

You are lucky. Here it never got below 3.55 a gallon, in places, and is hovering at around 3.67 a gallon.

When people stop buying, these cooperation are going to start crying when the people do stop, I would not let it pass them, to go to the government and tell them to "make" the people buy.

Unfortunately, the oil company's would just raise prices so that they can keep their big profits. Big oil doesn't follow the
supply and demand theory. Unless of course they are going by the "we have the supply...and demand you pay us what ever
we dictate, or you can live in a box on the street". Virtually everything in our lives is tied to petroleum products, not just in
our cars, but medicines, food, wood, and plastics, among many others. Even those things not made from petroleum, have in
some form or another petroleum products involved in their manufacture.

Big oil have us by the short hairs and they know it. Petroleum products are no-longer a luxury item, they are now a necessity
in our society, and need to be regulated accordingly. But our elected representatives prefer to sit on their asses and do nothing
out of greed, than do what we voted them into office for, which is to represent us (not big oil or other corporations).

[Zoli]

Schu, just asking: Do you have idea of the gas prices outside of the US ? Even for Canada or Mexico...

[Schu]

Schu, just asking: Do you have idea of the gas prices outside of the US ? Even for Canada or Mexico...

I hope this answers the question. I think it works out to be about 5.60 a gallon in Canada.

Everything in Canada is more expensive than here in the US (except for their health care, and a few other things), because of
the very high tax system they have. In other words Canadians pay a very high tax rate, just like in England. Gas prices in
Canada (1.40 to 1.50 a liter) and England (1.30 to 1.40 a liter) are nearly identical, plus they have no oil reserves of their own.
They have to go through the middle-east, the USA, or drill themselves in the Gulf of Mexico and pollute our shores.

In Canada federal taxes trump all. There is no city, county or state tax on fuel, only a federal tax, which is controlled by the
Monarchy and their Parliament. Thanks to that, they have one of the best universal health care systems (that we don't have).
Now combine the average American family's health care costs along with their fuel costs, and you will see that Americans
pay 20 times more for both combined, than Canadians do.

Mexico is just simply corrupt, but they pay 2.87 a gallon for regular unleaded gas, 3.00 a gallon for diesel...that is in Baja.
Gas is even cheaper in other areas of Mexico, and more expensive in places like Mazatlan or Mexico City.

[Zoli]

Schu, just asking: Do you have idea of the gas prices outside of the US ? Even for Canada or Mexico...

I hope this answers the question. I think it works out to be about 5.60 a gallon in Canada.

Everything in Canada is more expensive than here in the US (except for their health care, and a few other things), because of
the very high tax system they have. In other words Canadians pay a very high tax rate, just like in England. Gas prices in
Canada (1.40 to 1.50 a liter) and England (1.30 to 1.40 a liter) are nearly identical, plus they have no oil reserves of their own.
They have to go through the middle-east, the USA, or drill themselves in the Gulf of Mexico and pollute our shores.

In Canada federal taxes trump all. There is no city, county or state tax on fuel, only a federal tax, which is controlled by the
Monarchy and their Parliament. Thanks to that, they have one of the best universal health care systems (that we don't have).
Now combine the average American family's health care costs along with their fuel costs, and you will see that Americans
pay 20 times more for both combined, than Canadians do.

Mexico is just simply corrupt, but they pay 2.87 a gallon for regular unleaded gas, 3.00 a gallon for diesel...that is in Baja.
Gas is even cheaper in other areas of Mexico, and more expensive in places like Mazatlan or Mexico City.

Schu, you are wrong at some points:
Canadian oil reserves: http://www.energy.gov.ab.ca/OurBusiness/oilsands.asp
Canada medicare: http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hcs-sss/medi-assur/index-eng.php - paid by the qualified persons directly, not from taxes.
Local Canadian gas tax example: http://www.news1130.com/news/local/article/346984--despite-new-gas-tax-translink-is-lauded-by-outsiders
International gas prices: http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/10/news/international/gas_prices_worldwide/index.htm
On the other hand I perfectly understand your frustration, when life&economy based on the cheap gas prices(like in the US) cannot be sustained any more, and no plan B on the horizon...

[Cylnar]

The Athabasca tar sands, if completely exploited, may contain enough "oil" to make Alberta the new Saudi Arabia...and if completely exploited, would release enough carbon into the atmosphere to soon match its climate.

But that doesn't really matter. ALL crude oil in the world is sold on ONE international exchange which is managed by OPEC. It doesn't matter whether that oil comes from Saudi Arabia, China, Mexico, Canada, Russia, Argentina, the U.S. or what have you - it is ALL controlled by the towelheads (including the bin Laden family) in Riyadh - and at least some of those profits certainly go to fund madrassas, Al Qaeda, and other terrorist groups. I don't know why the world consents to this, but it does.

So processed tar sands bitumen from Alberta competes with light sweet crude from the Arabian peninsula and has its price set on that exchange. Think about that next time the oil industry tries to tell you that tar sands development and the Keystone XL pipeline will lower gas prices and create tons of jobs. Especially since most of the oil reaching the Keystone XL terminus in Texas would be shipped to China, by pre-existing agreement between TransCanada and the Chinese government.

Zoli, it's true that gas prices in Europe are about three times higher than they are here. We also have virtually no public transit to speak of, even in our large cities. We think that a bus line that runs every 20 minutes at peak times is great public transportation. Shit, I was in Lyon, France in 1992-93 and some of their bus lines ran every THREE minutes at peak times...which could lead to some lulz when heavy traffic (in narrow streets originally designed for pushcarts and horses) would result in two or even three of the same damn bus lined up at the bus stop. :laugh: And they had a decent subway (métro, tube, underground, subsurface light rail), too.

And our "best" public transit systems are in large cities in liberal-leaning coastal states...San Francisco, Los Angeles, Portland and Seattle on the West Coast, New York, Boston and maybe Washington, D.C. on the East Coast (I may be missing a few). In the middle of the country, conservative, pro-car public policy and lack of federal funds combine to keep most public transit anemic (if not nonexistent) even by the sad standards I have just provided.

Not to mention that most of our cities are laid out and zoned in such a way as not to be "walkable", unlike many European neighborhoods where you can shop for your daily needs within a 15 minute walking radius of your residence, here you may have to drive for miles in one direction to shop, miles in another direction to go to work, and miles in yet another direction to take your kids to school (if bus service isn't available)! So for millions of Americans, spending on gas is an unavoidable expense - we're pretty much over a barrel (of oil) and have to suck it up and pay whatever they want to charge us, so we can live in our increasingly dysfunctional and moribund oil-addicted society.

[Tessera]

Zoli, it's true that gas prices in Europe are about three times higher than they are here. We also have virtually no public transit to speak of, even in our large cities.

And we also have nearly no social programs to speak of. In the USA, we need to BUY almost everything that we need.... including medical care and higher education. Our overall cost of living is much higher, in other words. So it's all relative. They pay more for gas... but we pay more for virtually everything else.

[Cylnar]

Damn straight. They pay more in gas and taxes, but get services for those layouts from the government, which, while such programs may have their inefficiencies and institutional weaknesses, they are still cheaper overall than paying for dividends for stockholders, and millions of dollars in salary, perks and bonuses for CEOs and other executives. Virtually no government service that has ever been privatized has EVER resulted in greater bang for the buck. Quite the opposite.

[Tessera]

And let's also mention that the USA is not a small country. This nation is THREE THOUSAND MILES ACROSS.

Point being that to travel across France, for example, is a quick trip. A matter of hours.

Traveling across the USA, on the other hand, would take five days to a week by car.

Transportation costs more here... even if our gasoline costs less.

[perez007usa]

It seams to me Zoli, that you have all the answers, everytime we  have something to say, you have a comeback answer. I have dear friends in Canada, sure! they pay big at the pumps, but so what! They pay taxes on it, which in turn gives them the Health coverage the people need, and thats also in the European country's. But Here in the states,. well,  it's all a profit for the corporations, all is venture  and gain. So I'm sure you would have a answer for this. My Canadian friends what me to come there, sure, you might pay more, but in the long run my health will be better.

   The economy and the corporations will always be there to take what is ours, and not give back in return. I would not mine if I payed more in gas and the taxes that go with it , to get a Damn good Health program to back it up.   

[Tessera]

Well said, Perez.

[Schu]

It seams to me Zoli, that you have all the answers, everytime we  have something to say, you have a comeback answer. I have dear friends in Canada, sure! they pay big at the pumps, but so what! They pay taxes on it, which in turn gives them the Health coverage the people need, and thats also in the European country's. But Here in the states,. well,  it's all a profit for the corporations, all is venture  and gain. So I'm sure you would have a answer for this. My Canadian friends what me to come there, sure, you might pay more, but in the long run my health will be better.

   The economy and the corporations will always be there to take what is ours, and not give back in return. I would not mine if I payed more in gas and the taxes that go with it , to get a Damn good Health program to back it up.   

Agreed.

Zoli, I did not bring up the Alberta oil sands, because of what it is going to take to extract usable oil from it, and it is not
currently available on the market. Do you know what Toluene and Trichloroethylene are? In case you don't, they are 2 of the
most nasty, toxic, cancer causing solvents available on the market, and that is what they are using to extract the oil right now.

Now apparently you didn't read or understand my post about "Health Care". We in the USA, also pay directly for Medicare,
Medicaid and "Health Care insurance", and all of those come directly out of our pay-checks. Now to add to that, we also have
to meet, co-pay's whenever we see a doctor, and pay extreme amounts for medications. We pay out thousands of dollars a year
in just health care for one person, who may only see a doctor once a year, and that's not even including what some employers
are kicking out.

Like many in this country, I would be willing to pay 5.00 to 6.00 a gallon for gas if we didn't have to pay out thousands in
health care. Again, combine both health care and fuel costs in the USA, then compare what we spend a year to what Europe,
the UK, Canada and even Japan spend on the same. You will see that we spend 10 to 20 times more a year (depending on region)
than they do, for the same things.

[perez007usa]

As a painter by trade, not that I do it any more, Toluene and Trichloroethylene is want we use in painting vehicles, ya mix it with the paint to give it a stronger finish bond. You have to put on a full respirator and clothing to handle this stuff. It is "LETHAL".  Remember some time back were the cars paint was self destructing, that was the problem, and the oil people are going to use this shit, once in the ground that is it.

[Schu]

I would hope that they wont be so stupid as too use those chemicals to get it out of the ground. I do know that they are using
those 2 and others to separate the oil in the lab at this time, and lets hope that is as far as it gos.

[perez007usa]

Nah! they probably buy out some lab, and make them say it's safe to use.

[Cylnar]

Schu, the tar sands are already being exploited. Not in a lab either. They are actually processing bitumen into crude right now, and have for a few years. They create huge open pits for the processing (think an open-pit mine multiplied by an industrial waste pond). They have a pipeline called the Keystone I which has already spilled several times into various rivers and such, due to the heavy, corrosive and acidic nature of crude-from-bitumen, which really requires new pipeline technologies which have not been invented yet even to match the not-so-great safety record of the Alaska pipeline transporting light sweet crude. The abysmal safety record of the Keystone I has been cited by opponents of the Keystone XL as a compelling reason not to build the much bigger pipeline, which would drastically increase the amount of oil that could be shipped to China via Texas, and thus drastically increase the rate of processing and extraction of bitumen from the tar sands. Not to mention the greedy morons actually want to use thinner steel than normal for the Keystone XL, and pump at a higher pressure despite the known issues.

The (relatively) small-scale operation going on in Alberta now is already an ongoing ecological nightmare, causing mass destruction of boreal forest and habitat for all kinds of animals such as caribou and timber wolves (the Harper government is killing wolves so they won't eat the caribou, to temporarily "make up" for the destruction of the caribou habitat). So if the Keystone XL goes through (a near-certainty if Mitt Romney is elected and by no means off the table if Obama is re-elected) all the aforementioned effects, plus mass release of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, means we're all fucked sooner or later. I would recommend folks along the route engage in a campaign of sabotage to keep the bitumen from flowing...

[Schu]

I did not know that they were already exploiting that garbage, so I stand corrected.

Thanks for the info 

[perez007usa]

Any thing that the corporations do IS garbage .

[darkseductress84]

They project prices are just going to get worse, not better over the next 5 years...I need a hybrid or a better bike.