Gas prices and the economy

[perez007usa]

The greenhouse effect is a reality Zoli, increase of CO2 is effecting alot.

  This is from the guardian The Observer, http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/gallery/2012/jun/02/africa-forgotten-glaciers-in-pictures?CMP=EMCNEWEML1355#/?picture=391042941&index=0

Plants are every where, the mountains are green for the first time. Play Devils advocate here, is it a good thing that this happening? Well yes, its bringing  food and water  for the people there. At what cost? rising ocean waters, more CO2's into  the atmosphere, other places being flooded out, that never had that problem before.  Or the Smog we breathe in, in some of your major cities, ALL over the globe.

[Cylnar]

To Zoli and all those interested in the topic of anthropogenic climate change:

Read these two articles I've posted and linked below:

How a Bunch of Corporate-Backed Buffoons Took Over U.S. Climate Policy

Clouds' Effect on Climate Change Is Last Bastion for Dissenters

[Zoli]

@Tessera: I never questioned the CO₂ greenhouse properties, or the human production of the CO₂; I'm questioning the main reason for the global warming, which, IMO, is still unanswered.

@Perez: We don't know how much exactly is "alot", and that's the most important part; it make no sense unnecessarily eliminate the fossil fuels in the transition period to the renewable energy, which transition is needed for sure. And here's an another link about shrinking glaciers: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/02/1930s_greenland_glacier_retreat/

@Cylnar: What can I say? "Nothing new on the Western front" ? Some inept try to get his 5 minutes of fame, and the republicans do business as usual?

[Tessera]

I'm questioning the main reason for the global warming...

Why..?

Are you questioning it because you have some alternate science-based explanation in mind..?

Or... like many people... are you questioning it due to emotional and/or psychological reasons..?

[Zoli]

I'm questioning the main reason for the global warming...

Why..?

Are you questioning it because you have some alternate science-based explanation in mind..?

Or... like many people... are you questioning it due to emotional and/or psychological reasons..?

I'm not questioning the men-made part of the global warming for emotional/psychological reasons; I don't have alternate science-based explanation; I'm interested to find out why the global warming is happening, and so far I found no scientific explanation which is above any serious doubt. I know - we have to wait decades to have a good explanation which covers at least 80% of the current warming period, and possibly never fully understand our wonderful thing, the Earth. I have serious objections against politicizing the science, that's why I express my opposition in every occasion, even when the politicized science take the side of the masses. And no, I'm not a tree-hugger
If you, girls&guys, want to continue use the"men-made global warming" term for other then scientific reasons(like propaganda, "religious" convictions etc.), let me know, and I won't object; I can live with that.

[Schu]

I'm not questioning the men-made part of the global warming for emotional/psychological reasons; I don't have alternate science-based explanation; I'm interested to find out why the global warming is happening, and so far I found no scientific explanation which is above any serious doubt.

Well, according to geologists and global climatologists we have been in a warming trend for the last (roughly) 9000 years,
with mini ice ages in between. That means the planet has been getting gradually warmer for the last 9k years, with short
(geological) ice ages (think of the Dark Ages, when the weather was cold and crops were failing, due to short summers for
a couple of hundred years).

Then here comes the industrial revolution and the planet begins to warm even faster. Not immediately, but only because of all
the sulfates, the coal that was being burned pumped into the atmosphere. Sulfates reflect sunlight, as well as cause acid rain.
Then came the banning of the use of open coal burning without sulfate filtration to help prevent acid rain. Well they new
nothing about carbon monoxide or carbon dioxide at that time, and they were belching it out by the ton. Now add all of the
internal combustion engines that have been in use for the last 100 years.

You can tell that the climate is warming at an accelerated rate (without science). Just look at the records on temperatures
for the last 150 (US) to 300 (UK, EU) years.

Side Note:
Holy fucking shit folks, I just got back from filling the tank in my Jeep, and gas is now $4.53 a gallon for regular unleaded.
I had to pay $77.39 for 17 gallons of gas. That puts us in the top 2 highest gas prices in the USA. Thank the powers that be,
that my Jeep is good on gas.

Now the oil company's are saying that the high prices are because of the BP plant catching on fire and being shut down.
Well guess again, all that fuel, that comes from that BP refinery gos straight to British Colombia, and they are using it to
gouge us for even more money.

Thank god we still have a couple of representatives willing to go after them.

[Zoli]

Some questions, which you should ask, Schu:
How long is the warming period? 9k years ± how much? My point is that we don't know if the warming period is over or not, if we trust the historical data.
If the greenhouse gases are responsible for the global warming, which one is the main reason? CO₂, NO, methane, ozone, water vapor, or other?
How the Sun activity affect the Earth average temperature?
IMO, these are legitimate questions which should be answered before we take measures.
BP: after what they done in the Golf, I would boycott all of their products.

[beetle]

gas is now $4.53 a gallon for regular unleaded.
I had to pay $77.39 for 17 gallons of gas. That puts us in the top 2 highest gas prices in the USA.

Cheapest gas I've seen in my area is 3.52 at the Hess station down the street. Tho my state is also in the top ten for highest state tax on gasoline.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/state-sales-gasoline-cigarette-and-alcohol-tax-rates-state-2000-2010

[perez007usa]

Here in Deland, Fla. it's $3.29. it has been trickling down about a penny every day.

And to Zoli, It is not the Earth's fault about warming trends, it has always been there.  Don't blame the Sun, cause it has been there since the beginning. But when companies themselves releasing  toxic waste to the air CO2, methane, ozone depeleting  gases.

   I should know I lived in the northeast for many years besides these, these, poison companies, spueling out their waste into the air or ground.
When they sound an alarm, it is to tell the people who live  and work around the area to don gas mask or respirators.  They have finally  closed down one of the oil refineries down the road where we used to live, reason, it was too, toxic, the air, the water, the ground.

    The warming period is NOT over by a long shot, and hang the historical data. I for for the better part, am happy to breathe AIR, not being sick all the time, since I move here.  Remember not long ago, about 5 or 10 years, The every same companies were trying the blame the animals, grazing on the grass that their "FARTS" were to blame, and not them. 

    I do not need to ask, is the greenhouse gases causing this mess, " YES "

[Zoli]

...
And to Zoli, It is not the Earth's fault about warming trends, it has always been there.  Don't blame the Sun, cause it has been there since the beginning. But when companies themselves releasing  toxic waste to the air CO2, methane, ozone depeleting  gases.
...

Well, Perez, I don't blame anything for global warming; I want to know what's causing it. Regarding the Sun: it is an self-controlled atomic clockwork, or a mass of rotating semi-stable high temperature gas?
And about the gases which I've asked Schu, the CO₂ is the least greenhouse effect causing; the others are orders of magnitude more greenhouse effect causing then the CO₂, and we don't have accurate historical data on the concentration or distribution of those gases in the atmosphere...

...
   I should know I lived in the northeast for many years besides these, these, poison companies, spueling out their waste into the air or ground.
When they sound an alarm, it is to tell the people who live  and work around the area to don gas mask or respirators.  They have finally  closed down one of the oil refineries down the road where we used to live, reason, it was too, toxic, the air, the water, the ground.
...

The pollution should have been taken much more seriously since a long time ago; the pollution is a much bigger problem then the global warming, IMO. One of the reasons why the environmental sciences are so undeveloped is the industrial lobby against, and now the governments wants proof to justify the carbon credits...

...
The warming period is NOT over by a long shot, and hang the historical data. I for for the better part, am happy to breathe AIR, not being sick all the time, since I move here.  Remember not long ago, about 5 or 10 years, The every same companies were trying the blame the animals, grazing on the grass that their "FARTS" were to blame, and not them.

    I do not need to ask, is the greenhouse gases causing this mess, " YES "

Between a blame and a proof is long road, you should know it; you can't blame somebody having a gun for murdering somebody else, unless you have proof. And in this case, using as comparison the person with the gun, we have a dead person, and you consider the closest person to the scene with a gun guilty for murder, without any other proof; and I've presented a few more persons with guns, and possibilities to commit murder, respectively pointed out the possibility of the death by natural causes.

[perez007usa]

 Zoli, you may or may not have lived in a place, where you see is smoke stacks spueling out these gases, where all you see is a haze in the air. where you buy bottled water cause the water is polluted, same same goes for the ground, where you can't grow anything. try that someday living in a place  like this. The main reason is  the leaders are in denial, they know what is happening, all they care is the piece of the pie. They give us false info, on everything.

Well, Perez, I don't blame anything for global warming; I want to know what's causing it.
And about the gases which I've asked Schu, the CO₂ is the least greenhouse effect causing; the others are orders of magnitude more greenhouse effect causing then the CO₂, and we don't have accurate historical data on the concentration or distribution of those gases in the atmosphere...

I think you do know what's causing it. Every kid in grade school knows it. We need to get a hold on this matter, or maybe one "Clear Day" we will all be paying for bottle air.

[Zoli]

Zoli, you may or may not have lived in a place, where you see is smoke stacks spueling out these gases, where all you see is a haze in the air. where you buy bottled water cause the water is polluted, same same goes for the ground, where you can't grow anything. try that someday living in a place  like this. The main reason is  the leaders are in denial, they know what is happening, all they care is the piece of the pie. They give us false info, on everything.
...

A couple of months in my mandatory army services I've served in Copsa Mica(just look it up) in the '80s, when both factories(carbon dye and lead/zinc melter) were working at full capacity(+ a cement factory 10 miles away, in Medias). The viewing distance during the day was ~30m(100ft), after that everything was a dark grey wall.

...
I think you do know what's causing it. Every kid in grade school knows it. We need to get a hold on this matter, or maybe one "Clear Day" we will all be paying for bottle air.

No, honestly I don't know what's causing the global warming; I have my suspicions(a combination of factors), but I don't know for sure. But I do know that is irresponsible to teach unproven facts(like religion or men-made global warming) in grade school; pollution is a different story.

[Tessera]

"Unproven..?"

According to whom..?

[Zoli]

For me is unproven, both items.

[Cylnar]

An overwhelming scientific consensus (all but a few, mostly corporate-financed holdouts) isn't enough for you? You're not a climate scientist, I'm pretty sure, so you're better off taking the word of nearly all competent and reputable climatologists. If your doctor tells you you have rectal cancer, do you need to have him pull your large intestine out through your anus and show you the tumor in the mirror? :laugh: No, you take his word for it, and ask what you need to do to deal with it.

[Tessera]

For me is unproven, both items.

Zoli,

Facts don't stop being true, just because someone refuses to believe in them.

Think about religious people for a moment. There is a world of evidence which has
conclusively proven that evolution is a fact -- not a theory. And yet, despite the
existence of those very real and very tangible facts, there are millions of religious
people in this world who refuse to believe that evolution really happened.

Your comments within this thread are similar in attitude. Various real and tangible
facts regarding global warming have been raised here. And in almost every case,
you have said things like "Well I really don't know about that," or "I was not aware
of such-and-such," and so forth. You even tried to say that the conditions on Venus
were caused by methane... and not the correct answer, which is carbon dioxide.

In short, you have made it clear that you are not a scientist and that in many ways,
you are largely ignorant when it comes to the facts and figures which pertain to the
Earth's climatology.

And yet here you are, insisting that human-induced global warming is "unproven."

This brings me back to what I said earlier within this thread: emotions are not a substitute for science.

[Zoli]

An overwhelming scientific consensus (all but a few, mostly corporate-financed holdouts) isn't enough for you? You're not a climate scientist, I'm pretty sure, so you're better off taking the word of nearly all competent and reputable climatologists.
...

I believe these and these scientists; I leave it to you, to find a category for them...

...
If your doctor tells you you have rectal cancer, do you need to have him pull your large intestine out through your anus and show you the tumor in the mirror? :laugh: No, you take his word for it, and ask what you need to do to deal with it.

LOL, of course I'm not interested to see my own guts -- I'm not part of "The Itchy and Scratchy show" ; but since I'm a skeptic, I would ask for a second opinion, with (new)sample test...

Zoli,

Facts don't stop being true, just because someone refuses to believe in them.
...

Agree; but don't forget: it applies to all of us.

...
Your comments within this thread are similar in attitude. Various real and tangible
facts regarding global warming have been raised here. And in almost every case,
you have said things like "Well I really don't know about that," or "I was not aware
of such-and-such," and so forth. You even tried to say that the conditions on Venus
were caused by methane... and not the correct answer, which is carbon dioxide.
...

Comments like the explanation why the Sun has such an unknown influence on the climate? Or why the computer-based simulations are completely fucked-up, yet the results are treated like holy script by the media?
And where is the "Well I really don't know about that", and the "I was not aware of such-and-such", can you point me out, please? Looks like my words are in need of some further explanation.
Plus the above quote has clear techniques of propaganda(unwanted, I'm sure): vague, undefined words("I was not aware of such-and-such"), glittering generalities ("Various real and tangible facts regarding global warming have been raised here"); name-calling("Your comments within this thread are similar in attitude").

...
In short, you have made it clear that you are not a scientist and that in many ways,
you are largely ignorant when it comes to the facts and figures which pertain to the
Earth's climatology.

And yet here you are, insisting that human-induced global warming is "unproven."
...

Ignorant to propaganda&bullshit, not to the facts, that's why I think what I think; if you don't believe the facts that I do, it doesn't make them untrue.

...
This brings me back to what I said earlier within this thread: emotions are not a substitute for science.

That's why it would be a great time to give up on personal comments&attacks, and focus on the hard facts, like the Sun's role, the different GHG's etc.
And a personal question, if you allows it: after your experience with the TPG on wikipedia, why are you still using them?

[Tessera]

If those articles are your sole source of information Zoli, then you've been deceived.

I'll make this easy for everyone to put into perspective, by quoting one of those very same articles that you've cited:

So the disagreements really break down into two. There's the science: human influence is either significant or not so significant; and there's economics: we must have policies which make drastic changes to society, lifestyles and industrial policy – what George Monbiot called "a war against ourselves" – or we must sensibly adapt, and are foolish to create more unnecessary human poverty and misery when we don't need to.

In short: the deniers are spieling disinformation on behalf of industry and the politicians. It's all right there, Zoli. The entire thrust of BOTH of those articles is "Why should we mess up our economy and lose our grip on wealth and power..? Forget the science... let's just side-step the facts and consider what a tiny minority of dissenting and heavily invested hacks would like us to believe."

Get the picture..? You have about 50 or 60 pre-paid, right-wing hacks on your side, Zoli.

And I have about 5800 un-invested international scientists on my side. All of whom insist that man-made carbon emissions are causing a greenhouse effect on this planet.

And your comment regarding the TPG and Wikipedia is completely unrelated and it has no place within this discussion. It's a cheap shot... and I don't expect you to let it happen again.