Questions regarding patches.

[Prisoner416]

I've been using Wesp's patch for a while now. Honestly, I like the majority of the changes it makes that don't affect core gameplay.

However, there are minor things I don't like about it, and so I would be interested in trying a "clean" patch. However, I still would like to have some of the features from Wesp's patch available.

I have no idea how many of these are available as mods. The improved eyes, the reinserted music for the beach front, the short Hellcat sequence at the hotel where it rams the trailer once you get the key... those are things I would like to keep. Some of the restored NPC lines are pretty amusing too. However, for me there is a fine line between restoring deleted content and just adding things. Nine being able to give you a grenade for the final battle stands out, as it's pretty much implied he used that to survive the werewolf. Moving Fat Larry does make a bit more sense, as his original location was selling illegal merchandise next to a parking lot security guard out in the open...

I don't really care about weapon mods, or most gameplay additions. (Although the option to keep heather from getting killed in your apartment is pretty neat.) That's just asking for gameplay balance issues.

I know that there is a lot of... ill-will towards the patch and its author. I don't really want to get involved in that as I can see both sides.

Just wondering how many changes I'd be able to manually deploy along with the True Patch.

[Tessera]

Hi there. I will do my best to respond to you as honestly as I can...

The improved eyes

Wesp appropriated those eye textures from a pre-existing mod, created by a modder who goes by the name of "Nivea." That mod is available separately. Just do a Google search for "Bloodlines Nivea eye mod," or whatever. I forget the exact name of the mod, but I do know that it has always been available separately from the author. I was using it myself at one point, back before I created my own eye textures.

the reinserted music for the beach front

...is something that Wesp made up out of his own silly head. The only music which is supposed to be playing on the beach is the music coming from the ghetto blaster ("A Smaller God" by Darling Violetta). The beach is supposed to be quiet for a reason... and that reason is a little something called "atmosphere," a concept which Wesp seems to be completely oblivious to. See next comment...

...the short Hellcat sequence at the hotel where it rams the trailer once you get the key...

That sequence was cut from the final game for a reason, after Troika play-tested the haunted hotel level. It was removed because it diminished the scary surprise that we experience when we first approach the front door to the hotel (the nearby light bulb explodes). If we had gotten a prior scare from the Hellcat sequence, then the shock value of our approach to the main entry would have been far less scary for the player. Thus, Troika wisely decided to cut that sequence altogether. They decided that it was redundant, necause it had the effect of making our initial approach to the hotel -less- scary... not more scary.

Once again, Wesp has no understanding of the all-important ambiance and atmosphere within this game, which explains why he has been gleefully "restoring" cutting room floor garbage that Troika DELIBERATELY cut from Bloodlines.

The term "restoration" refers to replacing something which is supposed to be there, but is missing. Sadly, almost NONE of Wesp's so-called "restorations" fit that description. In almost every case, Wesp has simply re-inserted unwanted material that Troika deliberately removed from the game. As for why they removed various bits and pieces, it is for the same reason that a film editor cuts and edits the raw footage for a movie: so that the final version will have better continuity and thus, be more entertaining overall. But by re-inserting all of that discarded material, Wesp has essentially undermined the efforts of the original developers, by ruining their final cut of the game. I don't call that a "restoration." On the contrary -- I call it sabotage. I am sorry if that sounds harsh... but when you think it over very carefully, you can't help but come to the same conclusion.

...those are things I would like to keep.

Well with all due respect, I can't imagine why -- since most of that discarded material ruins the original mood and continuity of Bloodlines. It effectively changes the game into something far more juvenile, to be honest. That's why Troika removed all of those snippets in the first place, as I have already explained. And that is why no version of the True Patch has ever done something so foolish as to forcibly re-insert material that the original authors didn't want to be in the final version of the game.

Wesp's "kitchen sink" approach is irresponsible. It may give a small thrill to people who want to see new things in an old game... but it has also had the unfortunate side effect of undermining the pace, continuity, balance and atmosphere of the original game. For Wesp to have done such a thing to Troika's final masterpiece is... in my opinion... completely unforgivable.

Moving Fat Larry does make a bit more sense, as his original location was selling illegal merchandise next to a parking lot security guard out in the open...

Actually, no. The decision by Troika to move Larry into a brightly lit area makes more sense. They no doubt moved Larry so that the player would have a better chance of finding him -before- trying to do any of the Act Two quests. We need the armor and weapons that Larry has for sale. But in his original location, he was too well hidden in a dark alleyway... a place where the player might not find him until we were well into the second act. So, Larry was moved... to a more conspicuous and "player-friendly" location.

As for the nearby security guard, how do we know that he isn't on the take..? Larry could be giving him bribes. It just so happens to be a particularly seedy part of the city... so the notion of a corrupt security guard taking bribes from a local thug is hardly a stretch of the imagination. There are a couple of hookers a block away. There are street gangs fighting with guns and knives in the streets just around the corner. The Russian mafia is over on the next street... and likewise very close to another security guard. So it seems quite plausible to me that the local security guards are on the take. How else can we explain their apparent disinterest in the rampant crime taking place all around them..?

Wesp didn't consider any of these fine points, because quite frankly, Wesp is a moron. I'm sorry -- but he really is. He is very young... barely out of adolescence, in fact... and hence very naive. Which is why he should stop forcing his idiotic and ill-conceived notions of "improvements" upon the rest of the Bloodlines community. No wonder his most rabid fans are all teenagers.

From a gameplay standpoint, Wesp simply has no idea what he is doing. Oh sure... he knows a fair amount about the nuts-and-bolts of this game, but almost nothing about its underlying mood and atmosphere. The sad fact of the matter is that Wesp doesn't do these things because he should... he just does them because he can. And that is almost always a mistake... and eventually, it becomes a trap. A trap which, at this point, Wesp will probably never be able to escape from. He has managed to butcher Bloodlines so extensively that at this point, about half of each new release of his "unofficial patch" consists of repairs to things that Wesp himself broke in a previous version. Which to me seems rather pathetic.

***

The bottom line is this: a patch is a patch, and a mod is a mod. Third-party patches should simply fix bugs. If the end user wants anything beyond that, then that is what mods and modders are for.

Give the TPG a try. If you decide that you want something extra to be added to the game, and if you can not find an appropriate TPG-compatible mod, then come to me and let's talk. I happen to be a modder.... and in fact, I happen to have created the single largest Bloodlines mod in existence ("Tessera's VTMB Mega-Mod"). And we have a few other people on this site who are likewise pretty good at constructing mods. So if what you desire is feasible, then I have no doubt that we will be able to put something together.  

I hope this post has helped to answer your questions. I also hope that it has helped you to perhaps gain a somewhat new perspective on this entire situation.

[Prisoner416]

I agree with the idea that a patch should be as pure as possible. However, at the same time I do feel that some of the deleted content does well in the game. The hellcat sequence, to me, just doesn't seem to be fully programmed. It doesn't really take away the scare from the light.

The music, well, from what I understand those tracks were provided by Rik Schaffer, the original game composer. Who knows if they were put in the right sections or not, though.

Mainly, I like the idea of the restored dialog and hooks for idle states. Yes, I know... it can make the NPC's a bit chatty at times... but a lot of the dialog was funny, and I hate seeing good material like that getting wasted.

Also, the only other concern I have is the replacement model for a certain video tape in the True patch... I play the game around my older parents a lot since they are into the storyline, and that would be... awkward.

[Tessera]

Your parents..? I'm not sure why an adult would care whether or not his parents approve of how he spends his leisure time, but whatever. I'll just respond by asking you this: how do your parents feel about the topless dancers in Vesuvius..? Or the hookers giving blowjobs right out in the open, both in Downtown and in Chinatown..?

And how about all of that violence, blood and gore..? Are they okay with that..? Probably... which is rather typical. Violence and murder are fine... but nipples are evil. Gotcha.  

Bloodlines is a game which features nudity, prostitution, violence, gore, murder, serial killings, torture, sex crimes, disturbing adult themes and drug use right out of the box. The very opening scene, in fact, depicts what appears to be the aftermath of a kinky sexual encounter (complete with handcuffs attached to the bed frame and underwear strewn upon the floor), followed by a sudden and frightening murder. This is not a game for children or prudes. Bloodlines is an adult game, intended for mature and NON-REPRESSED players.

So if your parents can handle watching R-rated movies, then they shouldn't have any problem with Bloodlines.

And please stop using the term "restored." I have already explained that nearly all of Wesp's so-called "restored" content is actually unwanted garbage that was purposefully discarded by the developers. It is not missing... it is not incomplete... and it is certainly not some secret, hidden content that only Wesp knows about. It was CUT OUT OF THE GAME FOR A REASON. If Troika had been given more time to do a final cleanup on the retail game package, then all of those discarded files would have been removed from the installation disks.

Your opinions regarding the purposefully cut Hellcat sequence are noted. However, the developers at Troika disagreed with that opinion... and that is why the sequence in question was discarded. And I likewise agree with their decision to remove it, because I feel that it would degrade the events which happen at the main entry to the hotel. Too many sudden shocks in a row can desensitize the player... which would have the effect of making that entire level have much less impact. So it does not belong in the game, period. If someone wants to put it back, then that's fine... but such arbitrary changes should -never- be incorporated into a third-party patch. I personally would never create such a mod, because to do so would be to undermine the timing and the suspense of that entire sequence of events.

The video tape that you are referring to is the Guy Magazine R-rated swimsuit video, featuring Imalia. Gary's own description of that tape makes it clear that Imalia appears topless in that video. He also states that the tape was "pulled from the store shelves," which further makes it clear that it contained R-rated content. Hence my decision to create a texture for it which is consistent with what we see on similar video tape boxes: topless girls leering at you, which in turn induces people to purchase those videos. Keep in mind that there was no proper texture for that video in the default game... it was missing completely. It was sharing the same texture as the Death Mask Productions snuff film, which is obviously incorrect. We therefore needed a new and unique texture for it -- so I went ahead and created an appropriate texture, 100% based upon the in-game description of that item.

At any rate, I am getting the impression that you would prefer to play Wesp's heavily bastardized and dumbed-down version of Bloodlines, instead of Troika's brilliant and atmospheric version. If that is indeed the case, then the True Patch is definitely not for you. Our patch simply fixes all of the bugs in the game... and that's it. As I have said several times before... if we want anything beyond that, then we always have the option to install TPG-compatible mods.

My last word is this: if you have never played the TPG version of Bloodlines, then you really have no way of knowing whether or not you might prefer the original Troika experience. So my suggestion still stands: give it a try first... and then draw your own conclusions. You have absolutely nothing to lose... and possibly, some new insights to gain.

[Prisoner416]

Well, to be honest, I am 24, and it would be a bit more awkward for them. The blowjobs were cut out, weren't they? Even with the unofficial patch, they are normally in alleys I can avoid.

I don't give a damn if they approve of it, but it's better then her telling me all about the Twilight series she is ever so fond of.

She enjoys the dialog and plot, as do I. We're fairly liberal in our views. However, I probably won't show her Vesuvius outside of VV's dialog. The Sin Bin should be fine.

Again, I don't have a patch/mod preference. I wish some of the Wesp additions WERE available as a separate mod as otherwise I prefer the True Patch. I don't like how he's added content out of nothing (sending Gimble to Vandal, Nine's Grenade, etc.), but I do like some of the minor, non-gameplay changes. Anything that actually affects core gameplay, combat, dialog, should be available as separate mods or options.

Believe me, I understand the purist viewpoint fully, as it would make it easier for modders in the long run. I just wish there was a decent compromise available. I love exploring games for unused content, and I understand not all of it is going to actually work, and most of it was cut for a reason. Doesn't mean I don't find it interesting.

There is a wiki that detailed and listed unused content found in games, from NES to PC...

http://tcrf.net/The_Cutting_Room_Floor

I keep meaning to add some material I found in Max Panye to it (unused music and recorded dialog).

Perhaps we should start an entry for Bloodlines?

[Schu]

I'm with Tessera, the only thing that should be in a patch, is bug fixes and repairs. As far as some of the discarded material
that Troika cut out, being put in to the game, that should be left to the modding community and never be put into a patch.

Now finding mods for Bloodlines is pretty easy, just go to filefront or moddb, they both have quite a few mods, including
the eye mod that Tess mentioned earlier, as well as some re-skins of both NPC's and PC's. Not all are going to be compatible
with the TPG, because they were built using a different (cough) patch.

[Ratcatcher]

You know, all this back and forth got me to thinking (a dangerous thing usually, especially at 4am and somewhat tipsy).

From what i gathered by browsing the PV, STEAM and Wiki pages, there are a lot of wesp5 groupies out there, but there are also quite a few that aren't pleased with the UP.
That can be seen by the simple fact that wesp5 released a "basic" version of the UP.


Going by that we could argue that there are three ideology in the Bloodlines community.

#1 Purists
Those that understand the concept and agree that a patch is a patch and a mod is a mod. Those that prefer staying as true as possible to the vision, atmosphere and mood of the original development team.

#2 Wespists(tm)
Those that don't either care about the above, don't know any better or are simply put, sheeple.

#3 Fencists
Then there are folks like Prisoner416 here. That would like to be part of group #1 but (for some reason) see some redeeming value in some of the things that group #2 did.
Unfortunately for group #3, pretty much all of the mods and mod-makers out there use group #2's "work" for whichever reason, real or imaginary.

And heres the dangerous part.

"What if" some of these changes from group #2 were made, as mods, based on the TPG? (if thats even possible? Not to mention another bag of worm in itself.)
How many of group #3 (and even group #2) would give the TPG a real try and promptly realize/"wakeup" to the fact that group #2 has been leading them by the nose all these years?

[Tessera]

Suggested reading -- posted well over a year ago, by yours truly:

http://www.tessmage.com/forum/index.php/topic,56888.msg69224.html#msg69224

I have done my part. The rest is up to all of you.

Well, to be honest, I am 24, and it would be a bit more awkward for them. The blowjobs were cut out, weren't they? Even with the unofficial patch, they are normally in alleys I can avoid.

If you are 24, then I will assume that your parents are in their 40's and 50's. Would that be correct..? If so, then they both grew up during the 1960's -- 1970's, the era of the so-called "sexual revolution" in America. The 1970's in particular were a very permissive decade... much more so than today, even. I therefore find it hard to imagine that your parents would feel even a teensy bit offended by the harmless sight of a female nipple. In fact, the entire concept is rather laughable. Are you sure that it isn't YOU who are having a problem with it..?  

In any case, the texture in question appears -only- when you examine the Guy Magazine video tape in you inventory. And it is also VERY small, in relation to the rest of your screen. So if you are still frightened by the sight of a pretty girl wearing a topless bathing suit, then you could simply avoid examining that item during gameplay. Problem solved... and that way, your mom won't have a heart attack.

Frankly, I find it rather surprising that we are even having a conversation like this, especially in the year 2011.  

[Ratcatcher]

Suggested reading -- posted well over a year ago, by yours truly:

http://www.tessmage.com/forum/index.php/topic,56888.msg69224.html#msg69224

I have done my part. The rest is up to all of you.

Sorry, missed that.
Never had any issues installing your stuff so haven't looked too closely at the "Tech Support" sub-forum.
I haven't delved that deep into the forums, not done reading "General Topics" yet. 

[Tessera]

Sorry, missed that.
Never had any issues installing your stuff so haven't looked too closely at the "Tech Support" sub-forum.

No problem. I figured other people may have missed reading that topic also... hence the link. 

[Prisoner416]

You know, all this back and forth got me to thinking (a dangerous thing usually, especially at 4am and somewhat tipsy).

From what i gathered by browsing the PV, STEAM and Wiki pages, there are a lot of wesp5 groupies out there, but there are also quite a few that aren't pleased with the UP.
That can be seen by the simple fact that wesp5 released a "basic" version of the UP.


Going by that we could argue that there are three ideology in the Bloodlines community.

#1 Purists
Those that understand the concept and agree that a patch is a patch and a mod is a mod. Those that prefer staying as true as possible to the vision, atmosphere and mood of the original development team.

#2 Wespists(tm)
Those that don't either care about the above, don't know any better or are simply put, sheeple.

#3 Fencists
Then there are folks like Prisoner416 here. That would like to be part of group #1 but (for some reason) see some redeeming value in some of the things that group #2 did.
Unfortunately for group #3, pretty much all of the mods and mod-makers out there use group #2's "work" for whichever reason, real or imaginary.

And heres the dangerous part.

"What if" some of these changes from group #2 were made, as mods, based on the TPG? (if thats even possible? Not to mention another bag of worm in itself.)
How many of group #3 (and even group #2) would give the TPG a real try and promptly realize/"wakeup" to the fact that group #2 has been leading them by the nose all these years?

Exactly. Patches should be patches, not mods or upgrades or simply made up content.

Just because I like looking at and examining deleted content doesn't mean it should all be patched back into the game.

In a perfect world, I would be be able to pick and choose what got... reinserted? I'll use that instead of restored.

If there isn't enough info to accurately put them back in, you shouldn't be fucking around with them.

My view is sort of like with movies with deleted scenes. Sometimes, the parts were cut because they were trash. However, sometimes they were just cut for time, and actually make the film better.

If there were mods out there to restore some of these things like dialog hooks, I would switch over as soon as possible.

Also, with mods, I have the benefit of being able to experiment with them, view/hear the removed content, and then... delete it and go back to a pure game.

To be honest, I hesitated even posting on these boards because of the... well, some of the more flameful posts.

If we really want to bridge the community, it doesn't help for people to see a bunch of posts referring to Krauts and Nazis... I think we're above that level. If we want to get the community on our side, we have to go above that and be the better side.

[Tessera]

My view is sort of like with movies with deleted scenes. Sometimes, the parts were cut because they were trash. However, sometimes they were just cut for time, and actually make the film better.

Except that in a roleplaying computer game, time is not a factor. So then, what other reason remains..?

Answer: those segments were cut because they degraded the continuity, balance and/or focus of the game.

As for my name-calling against Wesp, I make no apologies. He has called me far worse, on other boards.

[Prisoner416]

http://tcrf.net/Vampire:_The_Masquerade_-_Bloodlines

We should work on expanding this article.

[Tessera]

I guess you didn't hear about the Wikipedia fiasco a couple of years ago.

The article about Bloodlines in the Wikipedia used to contain a description of the True Patch, along with information on how to obtain it. Wesp and his acolytes felt very threatened by the competition, however, and so together (and entirely at Wesp's direction), they launched upon a slimy campaign to perform repeated and malicious edits against the True Patch within that article. This eventually led to a full-blown war between Wesp and myself over on the Wikipedia site. The end result was that all information about the True Patch was deleted from the Bloodlines article, after their staff privately informed me that they didn't wish to provide information and links concerning "a porn site." They were referring to THIS site, of course. Obviously, this is not a porn site... but the Wikipedia people simply used that as a loophole, in order to side with the perceived status quo. That entire ordeal was one of the most revolting displays that I have ever seen from a site which postures itself as being "informative."

Just more proof that those user-editable Wiki sites are absolutely worthless, so far as being reliable sources of information.

Hence you can understand why I am rather hesitant to get back into another mess like that. The minute we start adding True Patch info to the site that you have linked, you can bet your ass that Wesp and his goons will show up ten minutes later and begin sabotaging those entries. They have done this sort of underhanded bullshit quite a few times in the past. And if they have done it before, then they will almost certainly do it again. Those assholes have absolutely no sense of ethics whatsoever, as they have proven time and time again.

If people are truly interested in Bloodlines, then sooner or later they are bound to stumble upon the True Patch. Word-of-mouth is something that neither Wesp nor his idiotic followers can interfere with. And so far, word-of-mouth has been good enough to lure thousands of Bloodlines players over to the True Patch... and away from Wesp and his amateurish collection of worthless garbage.

[Ratcatcher]

Didn't the White Wolf Wiki have the TPG info on it not that long ago?

edit: Yep, the TPG info was removed March 24, 2011, wonder who would've done such a thing...
edit2:[/sarcasm]

[Tessera]

Who did it..? Well, who do you think..?

The White Wolf Wiki -used to say- that there were two lines of fan-made patches. One which did nothing except fix bugs and restore a limited amount of content (ours), and another which makes several changes to the items, quests and gameplay (Wesp's).

And now you say that the True Patch info has been sabotaged..? Well gee, isn't that a surprise.  

The only reason that Wesp does this shit is because he feels threatened somehow by the existence of the True Patch. So let's play dime store psychologist for a moment. Do people feel threatened if they are secure about themselves and the superiority... either real or imagined... of whatever it is that we're talking about..?

No, of course they don't. So then, why would Wesp feel so threatened by the True Patch as to run around sabotaging Wiki entries, invading True Patch threads on numerous other boards, and generally behaving like a childish and dictatorial little scumbag..?

The only logical answer is: because Wesp knows that there is only one, TRUE Bloodlines patch on the web... and it's ours. The True Patch. That is why Wesp feels threatened... and that is why he consistently behaves in such a deceitful, underhanded and disgusting manner.

On our end, we have never, ever done any of those things to any of Wesp's articles or forum posts. Not once -- not ever. Mainly because we are mature adults... and also, because we are not the ones who feel threatened. Why should we be..? We have the best Bloodlines patch on the web. In fact, it is accurate to say that we have the ONLY Bloodlines patch on the web, because none of Wesp's work qualifies as a patch. It is in fact a big, silly mod that does more to undermine the game than to help it.

And he knows it. But at this late stage, Wesp has effectively painted himself into a corner. Hence his behavior.

[Prisoner416]

I guess you didn't hear about the Wikipedia fiasco a couple of years ago.

The article about Bloodlines in the Wikipedia used to contain a description of the True Patch, along with information on how to obtain it. Wesp and his acolytes felt very threatened by the competition, however, and so together (and entirely at Wesp's direction), they launched upon a slimy campaign to perform repeated and malicious edits against the True Patch within that article. This eventually led to a full-blown war between Wesp and myself over on the Wikipedia site. The end result was that all information about the True Patch was deleted from the Bloodlines article, after their staff privately informed me that they didn't wish to provide information and links concerning "a porn site." They were referring to THIS site, of course. Obviously, this is not a porn site... but the Wikipedia people simply used that as a loophole, in order to side with the perceived status quo. That entire ordeal was one of the most revolting displays that I have ever seen from a site which postures itself as being "informative."

Just more proof that those user-editable Wiki sites are absolutely worthless, so far as being reliable sources of information.

Hence you can understand why I am rather hesitant to get back into another mess like that. The minute we start adding True Patch info to the site that you have linked, you can bet your ass that Wesp and his goons will show up ten minutes later and begin sabotaging those entries. They have done this sort of underhanded bullshit quite a few times in the past. And if they have done it before, then they will almost certainly do it again. Those assholes have absolutely no sense of ethics whatsoever, as they have proven time and time again.

If people are truly interested in Bloodlines, then sooner or later they are bound to stumble upon the True Patch. Word-of-mouth is something that neither Wesp nor his idiotic followers can interfere with. And so far, word-of-mouth has been good enough to lure thousands of Bloodlines players over to the True Patch... and away from Wesp and his amateurish collection of worthless garbage.

I wasn't talking about adding True Patch info, I was talking about adding information and details regarding removed content or leftover code.

[Tessera]

Why..? I'm not sure that I understand why anyone would be interested.

I suppose it might be interesting for the sake of trivia.   //shrug

But anyway, we already have most of that info posted right here on this site.
If anyone is interested in that sort of stuff, then they can find it here.