What happened to the re-building project for VTMB?

[ryokoryu]

There was a project going on when I used to frequent this place to re-make bloodlines in a newer source engine but I can't find anything on it anymore.  It wasn't a project here but still I am curious what happened to it so if anyone knows please tell me.

[Dekami]

After countless failed attempts to up date it within source, the game is currently being ported over to Unity. The project is being done under the title of "Project Vaulderie". you can get all the current information from http://vaulderie.bloodlinesresurgencemod.com/

[ryokoryu]

Thank you for the info m8.

[Gman]

Sounds interesting. Shall keep an eye on this.

[Tessera]

Sounds interesting. Shall keep an eye on this.

Don't bother. Seriously... don't waste your time and don't get your hopes up.

Allow me to explain why...

Originally named "The Daedalus Project," it was announced right here on tessmage.com back in 2007 (by Daedalus himself). Their goal at the time was to port VTMB over to a newer, DX9-capable version of the Source engine.

And for the next six years, that project achieved, essentially, no practical results. Oh they did lots of work, and they even managed to get many of the static models to function within a newer Source build... but on the whole, their rate of progress was effectively dead in the water.

Another problem was that their approach to porting over the various game models did not allow for a third-person view... something which I consider to be essential for a game like VTMB. First-person view is fine for a pure FPS game such as Half-Life 2, but it is not acceptable for a vampire RPG like Bloodlines.

The Daedalus Project was eventually abandoned and now, they're talking about using an entirely different game engine. Meanwhile, that project is still woefully under-staffed.

I am therefore quite skeptical. I do not expect them to achieve anything that is actually an improvement over the default game engine, simply because they do not have enough of the right kind of talent on hand to pull it off within a reasonable period of time. Keep in mind that these guys slaved away for six YEARS, as they tried to port VTMB over to a newer Source build. Folks... it only took Troika two years to build the entire fucking game, fer chrissakes.

I understand why people would want to upgrade the Bloodlines engine. Having DX9 (or better) graphics would be very yummy indeed. Better physics would be nice, too. But in my opinion, their approach to both of those problems is misguided. Instead of trying to port the entire game over to a different engine, what they really should be doing is trying to find a way to incorporate DX9 and better physics into the EXISTING engine. That would be a LOT less work... but it would also require programming skills that, so far as I can tell, no one within their team possesses.

I realize this is a long reply... but I wanted to fully explain why I have lost any faith in that project. The people involved simply do not possess the skills which would be required to actually pull it off. If they did, then they would have finished their project a long, long time ago.

It's a noble goal -- but given the lack of talent involved, I consider it to be un-workable. 

[ryokoryu]

I don't really think it will be a finished project ever, but in unity they have a lot better chance.  It is a lot more forgiving on those who are not as good as they should be to do a lot of tasks.

[Tessera]

I would like to raise another point. If they port it over to a different engine, then we're going to lose the Source engine's graphics quality. And there simply is no better looking game engine than Source.

[ryokoryu]

Yes and no.  The capability is there, but it is unlikely they would be able to push it to that level with the resources they will be working with.  Unity can do more at present though in most cases than the current Unreal with some lighting stuff being the major difference.  AAA titles are still being made on Unreal, but it is unlikely they will get that far anyway.  I will be impressed if they get the intro and Santa Monica done.

[Basquiat]

Update: The project has made great headway, really. I seriously encourage any skeptic and holdout to review the past weekly and bi-weekly developer blogs hosted on the official website.  Also, the team director, artblizzard, addressed that concern specifically already:

Apparently not everyone seems to share the same thoughts, I've encountered several group of fans who would rather see it on Source because it looked "better", more moddable and so on. Others say Unity is a joke engine, the graphics look crisp and not alive, and that it should be ported to Unreal Engine 4, and so on, without ever thinking the amount of work that has to be put to get it done, which is exactly what was not happening with Source. I will be blunt here, working with an old engine as Source is something I was aware from the beginning, that it's not going to end well or at all. At the time Unity was growing, it still wasn't as powerful as it is now. No sane developer would want to put 7-8 years on finishing a mod or any other Source game that usually takes that long (I kid you not, look at most commercial non-Valve Source games), mainly because of the pipeline and painful tools to get the basic job done, where as Unity doesn't have any of these limitations.

As soon as someone hears Unity, they start to bad mouth it because of the image most indie games give. Sure, Unity has its flaws but it's definitely not a weak engine. It just allows us to get our job done the way we want it, while offering as many possibilities as possible. Out of box Linux and Mac support, integrated editor to create mostly anything that needs modding support, which is all allowed thanks to Unity's framework and .NET binding.

But I'm also excited to hear the huge support the project got since the Unity switch, and we were never prouder than we are now of the possibilities we can offer within the engine. Our goal is to bring the best, and it so happens that Unity is the best choice for that. We want an engine that is capable of running on mid-end computers, even low-end if possible. These are not really possible with UE4 or CryEngine, which would already kill a huge part of the community. What's the point on releasing a game that would work for a part of people. Or even without such a powerful editor at this point. But yes, the sky is pretty much the limit for Project Vaulderie and Unity, it's powerful, it's fast and very open. I do mean the pipeline here is open.

Thank you for the kind words and support, knowing that we made the right choice and are able to do much more just thrills us even more!

I think it would be a dandy notion on having the Tessmage camp and the Vaulderie camp working together to accelerate the rate at which the project is completed. An update is expected tomorrow. 

[Gman]

As far as screenshots and devblog go, it sounds promising, though by the sounds of it, their project lead is getting pretty burned out by it at the same time. Fun? Who knows...

[ryokoryu]

Indeed, I want to has updated bloodlines so I am hoping.

[Tessera]

Okay kids... everybody take a deep breath and settle down.

And now, let's do a reality check...

I've been working deeply within the structure of this game for 7 years... ever since the very first version of the True Patch. I am intimately familiar with every single nut and bolt, so to speak, that exists within the VTMB engine. Therefore... and I realize that this is going to sound conceited, but it's true regardless... my opinions about what is or is not wrong with VTMB should carry a bit more weight than the opinions of a layman.

So with that in mind...


QUESTION: what does VTMB actually need, in order to be "updated" and "improved..?"

ANSWERS:

(1) DirectX 9 or better rendering capability (the original game is limited to using DX8).

(2) Better physics. The physics in Bloodlines were cobbled together by Troika and they often malfunction.

(3) A more complex and responsive AI for the NPC's. The default AI is terrible. Something more akin to Valve's AI for Half-Life 2 would be a huge improvement.

(4) Various textures upgraded, in order to take full advantage of DX9 (or better) rendering.


That's it, kids. Those are the only things that Bloodlines actually NEEDS in order to be vastly improved. The keyword being NEEDS. Oh, you may want all sorts of additional bells and whistles, but none of what you want is actually necessary. And most of it would be stupid, detrimental to the "flavor" of the game, and ultimately a waste of time.

So let's get back to this VTMB "revival" project...

I have not seen nearly enough statements from the project leader(s) which resonate with what I have written above. I haven't seen much mention of the AI. Nor have I seen much mention made of the physics. Nor have I seen any assurances that the default third-person view will be maintained in their version of the game. Nor have I seen much of ANYTHING, other than endless posts about the models and the textures.

So far as I can tell, the goal of the "VTMB revival" project is too heavily focused upon the eye candy in Bloodlines, and not focused enough on the things that are REALLY wrong with the game engine.  

And now, they're talking about porting VTMB over to an entirely new engine, instead of retaining the excellent Source engine that the game was designed for. Even worse, they've selected an engine that is 100% guaranteed to ruin the lighting, the models, the "noir" appearance and the overall mood of Bloodlines. All in favor of having more bells and whistles, but with little to no consideration being paid to the important things that are ACTUALLY wrong with the game.

A long time ago, I stated that the best approach to revamping (no pun intended) Bloodlines would be to recode the original Source engine... so that its physics, AI and DX level could all be enhanced. And that's it -- that's all that actually needs to be done, in order to fix the things that are actually wrong with the default engine.

So then, why spend six years struggling to port the entire game over to an entirely new (and IMO inappropriate) game engine..? Why not simply round up some coders, and then recompile the original Source engine... with a DX9 core, plus new DLL"s for the physics and the AI..? Not only would my idea be a hell of a lot less complicated, but it would also allow VTMB to continue to run on the original and preferred Source engine.

If they had started out on the right foot, then the "revival" project would have been completed five years ago. But they didn't start out on the right foot -- and I said as much at the time. It's true that the people working on that project are good folks who have good intentions. A few of them even have talent. But good intentions are no guarantee against being DEAD WRONG. A house built on a bad foundation will not stand.

I remain as skeptical as ever about the Bloodlines revival project. More skeptical, in fact, ever since they started jabbering about moving the entire game into a new engine. Ultimately, they are going to ruin VTMB. Of that I am 100% certain.

Why am I so certain..? Because I'm Tessera, that's why. I know this game inside and out. Better than anyone on the "revival" team. And I know that it is not being given the treatment that it actually requires.

End of line.  

[Kilot]

Tessera,

Has anyone reached out to you about helping with the project? From what I've read you know a lot of the history and have a lot of experience with the game, it would seem anyone looking at bring it into the current gaming world should talk to you. I mean heck, I was able to run my game because of the mod you put together, sure it could have included some activision stuff but that should have been in the steam download already...

Kilot

[Tessera]

Tessera,

Has anyone reached out to you about helping with the project?  

Nope... and even if they did, I would almost certainly decline any such invitation. I have already said why. Their entire approach has been misguided from the start, and their priorities border upon being rather shallow, for the most part. As a result, they have bitten off much more than they can chew. Bloodlines doesn't need a "revival." It merely needs to have its existing engine upgraded... not replaced entirely.

Anyway, I'm sure they already know what my feelings are with regards to their project, so I do not expect to be contacted by their team. And that is just fine with me.  

[Verdun]

The project is now closed. CCP sent a cease and desist email saying, "While Activision retains certain rights to the game it created, CCP continues to own all other rights associated with Vampire: The Masquerade, including the copyrights and trademarks noted above."

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

[Tessera]

Cease and desist letters are bullshit. Just throw it into the garbage. The last thing that CCP or anyone else is going to do is file an expensive lawsuit against a bunch of fans, whose only crime is that they're trying to resurrect a broken game. And a 10-year-old game, at that.

Nevertheless, I'm actually relieved to see this issue being brought to a close. Those poor guys wasted 6 years of their lives trying to do something that was doomed from the start. I know they would see things differently than I do, and that's fine. I'm just sharing my own feelings here. Bloodlines never needed any of the things that those folks were trying to do with it. All the game ever really needed was some recoding of its core engine files.

Anyway, I'm just repeating myself again. I'm sure they feel bad about having to shut down their project. And like I said in an earlier post, I know those folks had their hearts in the right places.

[Ratcatcher]

There's also this.
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/11/24/vampire-the-masquerade-bloodlines-remake-cancelled/